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HOLD ON A MINUTE Episode 3: Her Right to Reproductive Choice
Introduction
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Hello! You are listening to “Hold on a Minute!”, a podcast by UNFPA Asia and the Pacific. This podcast series presents inspiring and powerful stories on the sexual and reproductive health and rights of women across the Asia-Pacific region.
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I am Poupée, Chaowarat Yongjiranon your host. To mark World Population Day on July 11th, today’s episode “Her Right of Choice” aims to shine the light on how reproductive choices are central to human rights.
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With more than half of the world’s 8 billion people living in Asia and the Pacific, and over 50% of this figure being women, there is an opportunity to be pursued through the population trends in the region.
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Today, we will be hearing from the Asia-Pacific Regional Director of UNFPA, the United Nations Population Fund, to learn more about the policies that countries can adopt to address the various population dynamics and how ensuring the reproductive choices of everyone, especially women, is central to facing population transitions within the region. Before we get into the discussion, let us listen to a short story of an inspiring woman who was able to to make her own reproductive choices and pursue her dreams. This is the story of Rasinee.
Feature Story - Reproductive choices / “Her right of choice
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My name is Rasini and I am 35 years old.
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I am a proud mother of a beautiful baby girl, and a senior manager of a leading telecommunications company.
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Education played a significant role in shaping the woman I am today. My parents encouraged me to focus on my studies as I was growing up. This empowered me to dream big and pursue my ambitions without limitations. This was very different from the time of my grandparents, who believed that school was for boys and home was for girls.
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Times have now changed. When I was a child, I remember seeing the world as one that was filled with possibilities. I witnessed women breaking barriers and achieving great things in various fields, and I too believed that I could accomplish anything that I set my mind on.
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I graduated with a degree in economics and international business. It was my mother who urged me to pursue my higher education, as she had only finished school up to fifth grade. Growing up, I remember watching my parents struggle financially. My mother did the housework and my father worked in construction. He was often falling sick.
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I am lucky that I have more opportunities today because of my parents’ support.
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Looking back, an important point in my life was being able to marry the partner of my choice. I wanted to live the rest of my life with someone who shared my values and beliefs. I sought a relationship built on mutual respect where my aspirations and dreams would be supported.
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I remember the many times we discussed parenthood, and how we together decided to have a baby when we were both ready to be parents.
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Balancing my career and motherhood is a continuous journey of growth. During the rare quiet moments, I often self-reflect on the power of choice and the choices I have made in my life - the choice to have a child, the choice to pursue my career, and the choice to strive for balance.
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I am filled with gratitude for the life that I have created and for the love and support that continues to surround me. My life mission now is to make sure that my daughter also grows up in a world where she is able to exercise her power of choice. I too am playing a role in the office by making sure all my employees can balance their work and personal and family aspirations.
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Third Voice - Hold on a minute, the story doesn’t always end like this.
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Introducing speaker
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Rasinee’s story is proof that it is possible for every woman to be empowered to shape her own path in life, including her career, and sexual and reproductive health; to freely choose if she wants to have children and if so, when and how many.
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Today we take a look at how this holistic rights-based approach that empowers women at every stage of their lives can result in resilient communities that can thrive, whatever their fertility rate may be.
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We are honored to have with us, Björn Andersson, the Regional Director of UNFPA Asia and the Pacific. Prior to stepping into his position in 2017, he served as Chief of Staff to two Executive Directors at UNFPA from the years 2013 to 2017 and from 2003 to 2008. Mr. Andersson has been working for three decades in international development and cooperation, during which he has held key positions in programme management and policy development, within the UN and government agencies.
Expert Talk
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HOST
Thank you so much for being with us here today on our episode, Khun Björn.
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We are so happy to talk with you. And especially since we've listened to a story that's quite interesting and unique. Rasinee is wonderful, her story. But what would you say are the key aspects in Rasinee’s life and society that have empowered her to make her own reproductive choices?
00:05:45:18
MR.BJÖRN
Great. It's so nice to be with you here Khun Poupee and I agree with you. Her story is just so inspirational and the fact that she had supportive parents, a supporting mother who really pushed her to be able to pursue an education and her father also being supportive in this sense, it's so central for a young woman or a girl to really fulfill her own dreams and aspirations.
00:06:14:15
MR.BJÖRN
And I think what she said in her story about dreaming big, about being ambitious and no limitations – she really articulated so well how she saw her possibilities in growing up and, you know, making her life important to herself and to her family and to her community.
00:06:36:04
MR.BJÖRN
And I think exactly what she said. I fully agree with that - about her education, that she had access to education.
00:06:44:02
MR.BJÖRN
But also, which is equally important, is that she could get a job after that. You know what, we talk in the international space about decent employment.
00:06:55:22
MR.BJÖRN
And she managed to get a job within economics and business so she could get that earning that she needed in order to be, to fulfill her own dreams.
00:07:05:23
MR.BJÖRN
But from our own experience within UNFPA and working in Asia and the Pacific, women and girls who have access to sexual and reproductive health and rights, access to education, and then having the opportunity to get employment. They are really empowered in order to take forward their aspirations in life.
00:07:29:21
MR.BJÖRN
And also today, if you know, in this region, in particular in Asia and the Pacific, we're talking about population ageing. We know that women are living longer than men and they need all the opportunities to fulfill their dreams at an older age.
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MR.BJÖRN
So by investing in social services, in access to health, access to reproductive health, education really helps to prepare a woman not only for her career, but also for older age.
00:08:03:18
MR.BJÖRN
And I think that Rasinee is really demonstrating that in the way that she is talking about overcoming barriers, changing norms and values, especially, you know, referring to her grandparents who were living in a different time where things were, you know, where women were treated differently, were seen differently. And that is changing.
00:08:28:19
MR.BJÖRN
And in summary, in a way, what she is telling us is that you can influence harmful norms and values in societies by changing behavior, by showing how we as individuals and women in particular, can contribute to the societies and the communities and the families.
00:08:50:17
HOST
Khun BJÖRN, I think that's very interesting. The fact that you said that the main concern was about her education, her rights versus the health care system, which, you know, in prior episodes of our podcast series we've talked about and focused on. And it's very interesting how you've given that insight.
00:09:12:14
HOST
On the other hand, it's very clear that the women's reproductive choices are, of course, directly linked to the world's population. And recently it has been widely reported that the world has reached 8 billion people. That is a very big number. I think a lot of people, when they hear such a number, can't really grasp the, you know, the amount of that. But there are a lot of different public opinions about this. What is the UNFPA opinion?
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Mr. BJÖRN
Right. Yes, you're right. We are 8 billion. It's… but it's a number. And we have to remember that.
00:09:47:22
Mr. BJÖRN
The important part is that each and every one of these 8 billion people represents a possibility for something – each and every one of us, we have dreams. We want to do something with our lives. We want to improve things in our communities, within our families.
00:10:04:10
Mr. BJÖRN
So the focus shouldn't really be on numbers and populations, it should be on people.
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Mr. BJÖRN
And I think that is so important that we make sure that, you know, each and every one of us, especially girls, have access to education like we saw in the case of Rasinee. That governments provide health care services and that people have access to health care services.
00:10:31:01
Mr. BJÖRN
[So we need to] And you know where we are coming from as a United Nations agency. If I can take one minute to talk about the historical International Conference on Population and Development, which was endorsed by member States globally in 1994, in Cairo, where there was a paradigm shift. Before 1994, we focused very much on numbers and targets even, and we talked about family planning, maternal health in isolation.
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Mr. BJÖRN
And after Cairo, it was very clear that, you know, the right for each and every one, and especially women to decide freely on the number of children they would like to have, this spacing of children and with whom she would like to have children. That became so central in the ICPD program of action and human rights, and especially the right to sexual and reproductive health is so prominent in that thinking from the mid-nineties.
00:11:36:08
Mr. BJÖRN
And then we have made a journey over 30 years and you know, the ICPD Programme of Action is still very valid today. But of course we are seeing different changes and the population growth is something that continued to happen over these past 30 years.
00:11:52:16
Mr. BJÖRN
But what we see and I think that is also important, is that people are living longer and that's thanks to education and better health and investments in social services for people. So that's something we should celebrate.
00:12:07:03
Mr. BJÖRN
At the same time, what we see today that we didn't see 30 years ago was very much around the number of children that women would like to have. And what we're talking about is total fertility. And that has dropped significantly in many, many countries.
00:12:24:09
Mr. BJÖRN
So talking about population growth is, yes, there is momentum in that, but there are also so many demographic shifts in countries which are important to reflect over today and to see how we are making sure that access to sexual and reproductive health and rights is still possible.
00:12:46:15
Mr. BJÖRN
And I think Cairo brought that into our, you know, our work that we're doing today. Our thinking around population and development. At the end of the day, it's really around equal opportunities and equality and to see beyond the numbers to understand that each and every one of us can actually contribute to sustainable development.
00:13:08:07
HOST
Well, thank you for pointing that out, that you know, and admitting that, you know, there has been, you could say, a revelation as to how there had been a focus on numbers, but now it's more about the mindset. And it's interesting how you said that the viewing of the women's role in society has changed, you know, from grandparents and that to the generation of grandparents to the present, you know, young woman that is living in the world that we have today, it's quite different.
00:13:40:12
HOST
But of course, there are still a lot of challenges to look at, despite the fact that we've made a lot of progress. There are still a lot of issues surrounding the issue of gender inequality.
00:13:51:13
HOST
So, how can governments ensure that policies address gender inequalities and empower women to exercise freely their reproductive choices more? You know, given the fact that we still do have certain biases towards this issue.
00:14:06:07
Mr. BJÖRN
I think at the end of the day, it is if we want to make progress, if governments are committed to make progress on sexual and reproductive health rights, what is underpinning that is access to or achievement of equality with women's empowerment and human rights in the broader sense.
00:14:27:18
Mr. BJÖRN
And you know, fertility and the number of children and that is something which, it's a concern for many, many governments and politicians also in Asia and the Pacific.
00:14:40:00
Mr. BJÖRN
But our message here from UNFPA is really that you cannot focus or be guided by fertility rates. It's so important that governments, communities and actors in general realize it's really the right of a woman to decide. And, you know what I said before and let me say it again. A woman must be able to decide on the number of children, the spacing, and with whom she has children.
00:15:07:19
Mr. BJÖRN
And that is, in essence, what reproductive rights is all about. And reproductive choices. And for women to achieve that, she needs as a young woman or a teenager to have access to information around sexuality. And ideally that should be provided in the education system because it is important that you have trained people who can provide objective information around sexuality and reproductive health.
00:15:37:11
Mr. BJÖRN
And of course, you have to adjust that to the age, you know that. But you need to start early to talk about relationships between men and women, to talk about the responsibility to have a family. And then you continue having information around family planning or access to contraceptives and reproductive health.
00:15:57:21
Mr. BJÖRN
But later on when women become sexually active, whether that is before her marriage or during her marriage, it is so important that she can have access to contraceptives and access to family planning services.
00:16:13:00
Mr. BJÖRN
And today, when we look around in the region, there are countries that are saying, you know, let's make it more difficult for women to have access to contraceptives because we want to increase the fertility rates. That is not the way to go. We know that that is not working.
00:16:29:23
Mr. BJÖRN
Instead, it is so important that governments are committed and invest resources to achieve gender equality and empower women so that they know, education shows that is a key like we talked about before, It's a key ingredient for women and women's empowerment.
00:16:50:05
HOST
Yeah, but on the other side, I just wanted to add something to, you know, a further question on what we've been talking about is finance. You know, it's undeniable that economic empowerment makes such a big difference. You know, we've heard that in Rasinee’s story. How can policies address these economic barriers and support women in making the choices that align with their aspirations?
00:17:14:09
Mr. BJÖRN
Of course, access to job, the labor market is key for women to be able to have an income and to also be an independent in that sense, you know, but it's also convincing governments, convincing the private sector that investments in sexual and reproductive health is actually something which benefits communities, benefits governments, well it's a return on investment.
00:17:41:07
Mr. BJÖRN
So, for example, at UNFPA, what we are doing is we're developing what we call the investment cases in family planning to show to the private sector and governments that if they invest in access to family planning, that will pay off later on.
00:17:56:17
Mr. BJÖRN
So what we need to do here is to remember that, yes, it's a right of its own that a woman should decide freely on the number of children and have access to family planning and reproductive health services and that it has its value of its own.
00:18:13:01
Mr. BJÖRN
But we have also to be tactical and strategic in that way, that if we are reaching out and have a dialogue with ministers of finance or planning ministers or the private sector, that we need to speak a language and have convincing evidence that allocations of domestic resources is key in order to be able for women to realize their reproductive health and their choices, that's essential in this. Without sufficient domestic resources we will not be able to have access to reproductive health, which in turn is. So it is key. It's essential in order for them to be empowered and also have economic freedom in that sense.
00:18:58:20
HOST
You know, there's been a wide range of issues. I mean, we have in such a short period of time, you've really opened up this situation for us to see clearly that it is just more than numbers. As we just said, in the Asia Pacific region there are some of the key themes, some key factors that hinder the implementation of policies. I think you've probably teased a bit about those that support women to exercise their reproductive choices.
00:19:26:00
HOST
What are those key factors that are hindering these policies? You know, governments make really good policies, but when it comes to implementing, it's very tough. So, what are the key factors that are hindering these policies and how can they be overcome?
00:19:40:21
Mr. BJÖRN
Two things here. One, one is really looking at what are the societal norms; there might be harmful attitudes, harmful values in communities, in countries which you need to address,
00:19:56:04
Mr. BJÖRN
And at the same time, like I said, yes, if there is political will, there might be good policies in place already. But the key question here is to ask ourselves how do we link that together? How do we make sure that communities and women and men are aware of the policies policymakers have made,
00:20:17:18
Mr. BJÖRN
For example, if they have, they should have access to family planning services or information. And that is something we are struggling with to a great extent, because you can talk about the political will that has to be in place. We talk about behavioral change, but how do we link that together? How do you internalize for an individual who is struggling on a daily basis to survive, to get, you know, to have food on the table for their children or to be with somebody who is facing a humanitarian situation?
00:20:50:22
Mr. BJÖRN
So we all need to be able to speak in a language about reproductive health, about reproductive rights or women's rights in such a way that it's internalized for individual men and women and communities.
00:21:06:19
Mr. BJÖRN
And for that you need to reach out to policymakers. You need to reach out to community leaders, both men and women. So it's not enough just to reach out to women. You need to reach out to the men to identify those at the community level. Who are these change actors, if you like, who can be the role models for both men and women to change their behavior?
00:21:30:19
Mr. BJÖRN
So that's the sort of strategy that we use when we are communicating around these matters. But at the same time, you have also to engage in a dialogue to say with policymakers, for example, at the national level in any country, that this is a situation in communities, how are you planning to be able to reach everybody so that you don't leave anybody behind.
00:21:56:12
Mr. BJÖRN
And that is a challenge. If you look at many countries in the region with, you know, small island states, how do you reach islands in Indonesia, in the Philippines, in the Pacific? How do you reach those populations, those women and men? The same if you look at countries, landlocked countries, Nepal, Bhutan, where you have mountains, where people are isolated.
00:22:22:01
Mr. BJÖRN
So that kind of dialogue needs to be in place so that policymakers fully appreciate and understand the needs of people, whether it's ethnic minorities, women in rural areas, persons with disabilities.
00:22:36:01
Mr. BJÖRN
So it goes both ways in order to be effective in, you know, implement change and also to identify stakeholders and identify those changemakers that can influence behavior that would be my priority in a strategy to make sure that people have access to sexual and reproductive health and rights in all nations.
00:22:56:13
HOST
So it's so important what you've just said, you know, that it's not just the women's issue. So then let's just talk to the women. It's the whole community that really needs to be addressed and to learn together and to evolve together.
00:23:12:08
HOST
So let's talk about the UNFPA and what you are doing to make sure that women across Asia and the Pacific can make informed decisions about their reproductive health and rights. What are you doing right now?
00:23:23:07
Mr. BJÖRN
So what we are doing right now - it’s to make sure that we can provide those policy advice to governments to achieve zero maternal deaths, preventable maternal deaths. Nobody, no woman, should die giving birth, you know, or giving life. That's such an important principle and an important result that we want to achieve.
00:23:47:20
Mr. BJÖRN
Also, everybody who wants access to family planning services should have that, you know, and we need to make sure that there is and we are working with governments and stakeholders and partners in that sense to have a logistics system so that governments can provide communities and rural areas with reproductive health commodities.
00:24:10:15
Mr. BJÖRN
But a third issue I would like to highlight is also closely linked to sexual and reproductive health and rights, and that's the gender-based prevalence of gender based violence in the region.
00:24:22:19
Mr. BJÖRN
And we know today that one in three women will be a survivor of gender-based violence during her lifetime. We also know that in certain countries, the prevalence is as high as over 50%. So every other woman, every other woman, will face some sort of gender based violence during her lifetime.
00:24:44:11
Mr. BJÖRN
And we need to prevent that. And in order to prevent that, you need to provide the evidence, which we are doing as a U.N. agency. We are showing the prevalence of violence against women, gender-based violence in many, many countries.
00:25:01:06
Mr. BJÖRN
And when policy makers realize, perhaps 50% of women in a country is a survivor of gender-based violence – you know, I've seen policymakers changing their thinking around that. And if you can achieve that, you get the political will to prevent gender-based violence. You also have an opportunity and opening to work with communities, with men and women, to change their behavior, to for men to internalize. And that's coming back to what I said before. They need to be able to understand and realize that it's not okay to have violence against their wives, for example.
00:25:44:24
Mr. BJÖRN
And at the same time, you also have to work with women so that they also realize that, you know, I've been out in many countries where you know, they say, well, you know, it's normal to be, you know, for a man to hit a woman. No, a woman must realize that that is not okay.
00:26:05:22
Mr. BJÖRN
And then once you have put that in place, which we are working on and we are doing on a daily basis, and we have actually increased over the past few years our capacity to work with governments and stakeholders and partners to address the prevalence of violence and to prevent that.
00:26:24:02
Mr. BJÖRN
But you also need to provide support to survivors, legal support, and psychosocial support. And I have been to Cox's Bazar, where you had an influx of many refugees, Rohingya refugees from Myanmar, and I’ve been able myself to meet with women who survived gender-based violence, survived rape. And you know what? When I ask them what is it that you want? What is your priority? And they said to me, clearly, we want justice. We want justice.
00:27:00:13
Mr. BJÖRN
You know, for all of us who are working to prevent and to provide support, the Justice and the voice of women who have survived gender-based violence is absolutely essential. So these are just a few you know, what are we doing as a UN agency in addition to many other things, to have policy dialogue around population, aging, elderly, women. How are we providing support for women to manage and to be able to age with dignity.
00:27:30:17
HOST
I think it's a lot of things that you're doing, and you did a great job in highlighting, you know, in the time that we have on our episode, what really is important.
00:27:42:13
HOST
So, Bjorn, can you tell us about the ‘For Every Age’ campaign?
00:27:47:00
Mr. BJÖRN
Yeah, for ‘For Every Age’ campaign is a communication, ambition we have as UNFPA in Asia and the Pacific to reach out to policymakers, to reach out to partners and communities, and for ‘For Every Age’ is really showing how investments in sexual and reproductive health and rights, in prevention of gender based violence, in access to education, investment in for women and girls, how that is actually critical for them to be able to realize their dreams, to build a career, to combine the career with the family life, and also at, you know, age with dignity.
00:28:27:04
Mr. BJÖRN
And that's how you strengthen a woman's opportunities also at older age to be an active partner in societies. And you know, what is coming out in this communication campaign ‘for every age’ is also the role of husbands, which Rasini referred to in her story and how you can work with men and boys to change behaviors and be supportive of women throughout the lifecycle.
00:28:55:12
HOST
So with that, with our last point, looking ahead, what are some of the key recommendations that can further advance rights based population policies in Asia and the Pacific, ultimately empowering women in their reproductive choices? What do you want our listeners to take away today?
00:29:15:08
Mr. BJÖRN
Don't look at numbers or targets. Make sure that, you know, whatever policy a government is developing, it is about reproductive rights for the individual woman.
00:29:31:03
Mr. BJÖRN
And I cannot underline that enough focus on the choices and the needs of women in terms of reproductive health. And for that, you need you know, we all need to have a conversation around sexuality, around reproductive health, around reproductive rights.
00:29:49:24
Mr. BJÖRN
And we need to address stigma, address barriers around this. We need to be able to talk about sexuality in such a way that is not threatening anybody and that you can internalize, you know, the fact that you have a reproductive right and that you have a right to sexual and reproductive health.
00:30:13:09
Mr. BJÖRN
But that takes time and it requires that all of us come into this discussion, into this dialog with humility and understanding that there are different cultures, that there are different contexts and the respect for that is important. But what we cannot compromise is when there are harmful traditions or harmful practices to women in particular.
00:30:40:21
Mr. BJÖRN
And those are the ones that we need to identify together with our partners in countries so that we address it together. And for that, you need empathy, you need understanding, you need patience and you need insights, economics, a human rights perspective, a societal understanding of how you can achieve gender equality in the best possible ways.
00:31:11:23
Mr. BJÖRN
And if we can achieve gender equality and if you can achieve human rights and women's rights in particular, we will also move the needle around access to sexual and reproductive health and rights much faster than before.
00:31:25:18
Mr. BJÖRN
I have been working in this area for 30 years and of course my view on SRHR, on population and development has changed over these 30 years.
00:31:42:23
Mr. BJÖRN
But what I'm coming to more understand, I'm not there yet, but I think I've come a bit further is the importance of respecting one another. But you cannot respect any harmful traditions or norms and values. And that's sort of the message we need to package to be effective in our communication with all partners internally within the UN system, with governments, with the private sector, with the civil society, and then continuously ask ourselves, how can I do this differently so that my message becomes effectful and that it's internalized by people, the people we working for, by organizations we are working with.
00:32:20:14
Mr. BJÖRN
And at the end of the day, you know, communities and governments, how they can achieve sustainable development and they are understanding of that. So our population and development are an integral part of achieving sustainable development. It is so so important.
00:32:38:05
HOST
BJÖRN. Thank you so much for being with us here on our episode. I believe what we've talked about, you know, you sharing your 30 years or so experience in the field has definitely woken up a lot of our listeners. It definitely has woken me up as to the importance of the issue that we are talking about and still need to work on. And we look forward to hearing more about the UNFPA and its work. Thank you so much.
00:33:07:23
Mr. BJÖRN
Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you.
Conclusion
00:33:11:21
This has been the latest episode of “Hold on a Minute!” by UNFPA Asia- Pacific. We hope we have given you insight on the importance of recognizing every woman’s right to make her own reproductive choices and ultimately how it can make our society more resilient.
00:33:29:01
For more insightful episodes of “Hold on a Minute!” by UNFPA Asia-Pacific, follow our podcast pages on Spotify, Facebook, YouTube, and Apple Podcast. Just search for UNFPA “Hold on a minute”.
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